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	<title>Comments on: Future Scenarios</title>
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	<link>http://zone5.org/2009/06/future-scenarios-2/</link>
	<description>...on the edge between Nature and Culture</description>
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		<title>By: Matt Southward</title>
		<link>http://zone5.org/2009/06/future-scenarios-2/comment-page-1/#comment-38566</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Southward</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jun 2009 14:01:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zone5.org/?p=490#comment-38566</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Ah, but this is only a definition - do people who use the term &#039;spiritual&#039; understand this meaning? I doubt it. And therefore we have to try and understand the context in which people use the term. I have used the &#039;S&#039; word in the past to describe my approach to life [though I am more reticent now], if only because people do think they understand the nature of the word.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;If I were to try and come up with a definition now, which reflected the varied uses of the word I would suggest that my version of spirituality is encompassed by my underlying search and belief system which makes life worth living [for me]. I am fundamentally opposed to the view that there needs to be an outside influence on this process [ie God]. I am simply spending some of my very short and precious time in this Universe coming to terms with my mortality, the preciousness, vitality and mystery [yes there can still be mystery in a rational view of the universe] of all life.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Perhaps we should look for a new word - post God - which is free of this inference?&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah, but this is only a definition &#8211; do people who use the term &#8216;spiritual&#8217; understand this meaning? I doubt it. And therefore we have to try and understand the context in which people use the term. I have used the &#8216;S&#8217; word in the past to describe my approach to life [though I am more reticent now], if only because people do think they understand the nature of the word.</p>

<p>If I were to try and come up with a definition now, which reflected the varied uses of the word I would suggest that my version of spirituality is encompassed by my underlying search and belief system which makes life worth living [for me]. I am fundamentally opposed to the view that there needs to be an outside influence on this process [ie God]. I am simply spending some of my very short and precious time in this Universe coming to terms with my mortality, the preciousness, vitality and mystery [yes there can still be mystery in a rational view of the universe] of all life.</p>

<p>Perhaps we should look for a new word &#8211; post God &#8211; which is free of this inference?</p>]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Alfie Atheist</title>
		<link>http://zone5.org/2009/06/future-scenarios-2/comment-page-1/#comment-38563</link>
		<dc:creator>Alfie Atheist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 08:21:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zone5.org/?p=490#comment-38563</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Spirituality is quite well defined: &quot;Spirituality is matters of the spirit, a concept tied to a spirit world, a multidimensional reality and one or more deities. Spiritual matters regard humankind&#039;s ultimate nature and purpose, not as material biological organisms, but as spirits or energy with an eternal relationship beyond the bodily senses, time and the material world. Spirituality implies the mind-body dichotomy, which indicates a separation between the body and soul.&quot; (from Wikipedia)&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;So the next time someone tells you they&#039;re not religious but they are spiritual we can politely remind them that they are as deluded as the religious!&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Spirituality is quite well defined: &#8220;Spirituality is matters of the spirit, a concept tied to a spirit world, a multidimensional reality and one or more deities. Spiritual matters regard humankind&#8217;s ultimate nature and purpose, not as material biological organisms, but as spirits or energy with an eternal relationship beyond the bodily senses, time and the material world. Spirituality implies the mind-body dichotomy, which indicates a separation between the body and soul.&#8221; (from Wikipedia)</p>

<p>So the next time someone tells you they&#8217;re not religious but they are spiritual we can politely remind them that they are as deluded as the religious!</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Do Egalitarians need Spirituality? &#171; Fourcultures</title>
		<link>http://zone5.org/2009/06/future-scenarios-2/comment-page-1/#comment-38546</link>
		<dc:creator>Do Egalitarians need Spirituality? &#171; Fourcultures</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jun 2009 13:21:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zone5.org/?p=490#comment-38546</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;[...] Do Egalitarians need&#160;Spirituality? By fourcultures  A thoughtful review by Graham Strouts of David Holmgren’s new book, Future Scenarios appears at his website, Zone 5. [...]&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Do Egalitarians need&nbsp;Spirituality? By fourcultures  A thoughtful review by Graham Strouts of David Holmgren’s new book, Future Scenarios appears at his website, Zone 5. [...]</p>]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Graham</title>
		<link>http://zone5.org/2009/06/future-scenarios-2/comment-page-1/#comment-38541</link>
		<dc:creator>Graham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jun 2009 08:32:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zone5.org/?p=490#comment-38541</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Thanks for your comment Ben- I think you have hit the nail on the head:
&quot;I wonder about spirituality - I’m not sure what it means, I don’t know
if I have it and I’m not sure that making it a conscious part of my
day to day living will serve me (or others).&quot;
- no-one knows what spirituality is! But the point is, there are many who claim that they do, and we should strongly challenge their beliefs.
Also, I dont think there is much evidence that the &quot;transition&quot; we may wish for will involve a shift back to what Holmgren calls traditional/indigenous values- these are in any case very diverse, but would include things like bride price, slavery, animal and even human sacrifice- often justified by &quot;spiritual&quot; beliefs.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;This is what &quot;the spiritual&quot; would have us believe- that we are missing something they have privileged access to.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&quot;Oh, threats of hell and hopes of paradise!
One thing is certain-this life flies;
One thing is certain, and the rest is lies;
The flower that once has blown forever dies.&quot;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Omar Khayyam (1048-1122) /The Rubaiyat
/&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for your comment Ben- I think you have hit the nail on the head:
&#8220;I wonder about spirituality &#8211; I’m not sure what it means, I don’t know
if I have it and I’m not sure that making it a conscious part of my
day to day living will serve me (or others).&#8221;
- no-one knows what spirituality is! But the point is, there are many who claim that they do, and we should strongly challenge their beliefs.
Also, I dont think there is much evidence that the &#8220;transition&#8221; we may wish for will involve a shift back to what Holmgren calls traditional/indigenous values- these are in any case very diverse, but would include things like bride price, slavery, animal and even human sacrifice- often justified by &#8220;spiritual&#8221; beliefs.</p>

<p>This is what &#8220;the spiritual&#8221; would have us believe- that we are missing something they have privileged access to.</p>

<p>&#8220;Oh, threats of hell and hopes of paradise!
One thing is certain-this life flies;
One thing is certain, and the rest is lies;
The flower that once has blown forever dies.&#8221;</p>

<p>Omar Khayyam (1048-1122) /The Rubaiyat
/</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Ben Brangwyn</title>
		<link>http://zone5.org/2009/06/future-scenarios-2/comment-page-1/#comment-38537</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Brangwyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Jun 2009 12:55:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zone5.org/?p=490#comment-38537</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I enjoyed your review of Holmgren&#039;s book, particularly this sentence:&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&quot;Nor is it necessary to embody any kind of “earth spirituality” in
  order to foster more sustainable lifestyles - these should come of
  their own accord, naturally emerging from a scientific
  understanding of ecology and our place within it, combined with a
  simple sense of beauty and wonder at the natural world, unfettered
  by ideological presumptions.&quot;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I&#039;d add to that &quot;... combined with simple acts involving nature, such 
as growing, foraging, harvesting, gardening - and even rambling (as 
long as it&#039;s done mindfully)&quot;.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;This again is why the frequent citings of &quot;essential paradigm shifts&quot; seem to be unnecessary. People and communities change gradually, (though the manifestation of that change can be quite sudden - as in my own leap from the world of commerce into the transition maelstrom).&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I wonder about spirituality - I&#039;m not sure what it means, I don&#039;t know 
if I have it and I&#039;m not sure that making it a conscious part of my 
day to day living will serve me (or others). I also wonder if I&#039;m 
missing something about it that&#039;s right in front of my nose... another 
of those daily mysteries!&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I enjoyed your review of Holmgren&#8217;s book, particularly this sentence:</p>

<p>&#8220;Nor is it necessary to embody any kind of “earth spirituality” in
  order to foster more sustainable lifestyles &#8211; these should come of
  their own accord, naturally emerging from a scientific
  understanding of ecology and our place within it, combined with a
  simple sense of beauty and wonder at the natural world, unfettered
  by ideological presumptions.&#8221;</p>

<p>I&#8217;d add to that &#8220;&#8230; combined with simple acts involving nature, such 
as growing, foraging, harvesting, gardening &#8211; and even rambling (as 
long as it&#8217;s done mindfully)&#8221;.</p>

<p>This again is why the frequent citings of &#8220;essential paradigm shifts&#8221; seem to be unnecessary. People and communities change gradually, (though the manifestation of that change can be quite sudden &#8211; as in my own leap from the world of commerce into the transition maelstrom).</p>

<p>I wonder about spirituality &#8211; I&#8217;m not sure what it means, I don&#8217;t know 
if I have it and I&#8217;m not sure that making it a conscious part of my 
day to day living will serve me (or others). I also wonder if I&#8217;m 
missing something about it that&#8217;s right in front of my nose&#8230; another 
of those daily mysteries!</p>]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Graham</title>
		<link>http://zone5.org/2009/06/future-scenarios-2/comment-page-1/#comment-38534</link>
		<dc:creator>Graham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Jun 2009 08:45:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zone5.org/?p=490#comment-38534</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Thanks Matt- and apologies for all the typos I will try to be more vigilant in future!&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Matt- and apologies for all the typos I will try to be more vigilant in future!</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Matt Southward</title>
		<link>http://zone5.org/2009/06/future-scenarios-2/comment-page-1/#comment-38529</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Southward</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Jun 2009 22:00:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zone5.org/?p=490#comment-38529</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Thanks for the review Graham. As ever, I value your unbiased and critical opinion of others&#039; work as it helps me formulate my burgeoning future reading list!&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;With regard to:&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&quot;Nor is it necessary to embody any kind of “earth spirituality” in order to foster more sustainable lifestyles- these should come of their own accord, naturally emerging from a scientific understanding of ecology and our place within it, combined with a simple sense of beauty and wonder at the natural world,  unfettered by  ideological presumptions&quot;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;This is SO true! I agree with you that Permaculture is in danger of losing it&#039;s credibility as it is championed by new-agers and it&#039;s rational basis is obscured. One of my biggest worries is that we are heading towards a new &#039;dark age&#039; and that through the energy descent, our scientific knowledge will give way to superstition [as you allude to above]. I guess we&#039;ll see - as long as the internet is running though, we can rely on you for straight up rationality! [just watch the typo count though].
regards&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the review Graham. As ever, I value your unbiased and critical opinion of others&#8217; work as it helps me formulate my burgeoning future reading list!</p>

<p>With regard to:</p>

<p>&#8220;Nor is it necessary to embody any kind of “earth spirituality” in order to foster more sustainable lifestyles- these should come of their own accord, naturally emerging from a scientific understanding of ecology and our place within it, combined with a simple sense of beauty and wonder at the natural world,  unfettered by  ideological presumptions&#8221;</p>

<p>This is SO true! I agree with you that Permaculture is in danger of losing it&#8217;s credibility as it is championed by new-agers and it&#8217;s rational basis is obscured. One of my biggest worries is that we are heading towards a new &#8216;dark age&#8217; and that through the energy descent, our scientific knowledge will give way to superstition [as you allude to above]. I guess we&#8217;ll see &#8211; as long as the internet is running though, we can rely on you for straight up rationality! [just watch the typo count though].
regards</p>]]></content:encoded>
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