Rob: how about asking Alanna for an apology for her mudslinging? You are one of the commentators she refers to as being misinformed. Do you really want to live in a world without Steve Bell? Not that I am in any way comparing myself with such people, but surely someone like Alanna who has placed herself so prominently in the public eye and responds to my lengthy and detailed critique of her work with nothing but a ridiculously pompous list of her credentials should expect to take a bit of slagging. If you cant stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. If you dont like my style, then why dont YOU do more work to stem the spread of these beliefs, because if you and other community leaders, teachers and educators etc. continue to be so complacent, we are only going to sink futher into the Age of Endarkenment. My sarcasm is necessary, IMO, to try to expose the hypocrisy of Moore’s stance. Your insistence on political correctness merely results in you playing the role of the apologist for these beliefs. Come on man, wake up- we are not having a genteel if heated debate about different kinds of mulch or plant guilds- we are talking TEN- METER- LONG- TROLLS. Now that is a LONG troll…

Interesting points but mostly irrelevant to the discussion. We know or are at least beginning to understand the action of serotonin why talk about natural cycles when we have a fairly clear idea of why this milk might work.

The female reproductive cycle can be observed and measured scientifically, it’s also often a little more varied than 28 days unless regulated artificially.

Sea weed collection has a nice direct conection to the tides and so to the moon, nothing mystical there.

I’ve already accepted there are documented cases of dowsing success, perhaps just because those who pay dowsers who fail are less inclined to make a noise about it?

If I had a product that sold like guinness I’d also be inclined not to change yeast culture if I could.

Your examples are good because with science we can explain what is happening. We don’t need to talk about natural energy, fairies or trolls, the action is clear and from this we can improve our understanding further.

I see Alanna uses rock dust in some of her work, there may be value in this, there is some evidence that rock dust or quarry waste as my dad calls it has some value. We don’t need to invoke spirits, we can get down to the real mechanism at work here.

More generally

I appreciate Rob’s point, yes we should treat Alanna with respect, but that doesn’t mean we just have to accept her article uncritically. If you follow the thread back to the comment that restarted the discussion, it started calling commentators ill informed and ended with a vague threat of legal action. I didn’t feel much respect there. My original complaint was with PC magazine not with Ms Moore, she chose to enter the discussion.

As someone who lived through the attempts by the church of scientology to silence their critics on usenet the approach rubbed at a raw nerve.

All sane people would, for instance, contest the ban on teaching evolution in schools, but what argument could an astrologist or a bio-dynamic exponent use? None, because they are in the same positon as the religious zealots – no evidence, yet demanding the right to keep spouting their nonsense.

So, I applaud your stand, Graham – it’s vital and we should all challenge more. But wonder whether this current debate illustrates the need not only to challenge, but also persuade. Giving well-meaning people who have dug themselves a cosy hole plenty of room and encouragement to climb out again? Allana, who after all is a colleague of yours, would perhaps make a fine convert and a useful ally when she’s had a chance to calm down and plenty of space to re-evaluate her position.. (and just imagine the career prospects for such a poacher-turned-gamekeeper!)

Tim

Pagan philosophy and practice have a long history of respect and care for the earth. But to call them scientific is about as ludicrous as calling Christianity scientific. Both are matters of faith and need to be respected as such.

Alanna is well respected as a geomancer, but she is not, as far as I am aware, a scientist, and what she does is not scientifically based. To claim such is to the detriment of both earth-based religion and earth-based science.

Just my 2c.

I’m an electronic engineer by trade, and I work in the pharmaceutical, brewing and dairy industries.

So I have no vested interest in any way here.

However, doing things according to old natural cycles, as is ridiculed here, is inherent in all of the industries I work. People do it because it works for them, even if they didn’t fully understand why it works. Mocking it because you don’t understand how it works just reveals one’s own gross ignorance and narrow-mindedness.

So, it occurs to me that the attack on Alanna Moore (whom I don’t know and have never met), for promoting a system of divining that has worked for generations (and Government Departments have engaged the services of dowsers for years), is at best a misguided attempt to appear knowledgeable, and at worse is the type of sneery, self congratulatory, know-it-all approach that serves only to alienate those that should be assisting each other.

Of the many ways that people use knowledge that works, even though we don’t fully understand how, I’ll just include:

For example: Milk collected at night has a higher level of seratonin.

One very popular product in Ireland at the moment is milk by Lullaby Dairies (it’s in all Superqinn stores) It’s used as a natural bedtime sleep promoter, as seratonin has proveable sleep enhancing effects.

Wyeth Medica Ireland makes the contraceptive pill, a hormonally based medicine, which is dispensed in 21day+7day break form. When I asked the head of pharmacology why it used this timing, he said it was because the normal female hormonal cycle was 28 days, in common with moon cycles (he made complicated allowances for the extra day) Wyeth Medica are a multi-billion dollar corporation, and don’t do silly things. Maybe they just research a little deeper than most.

Guinness (Diageo) use a particular seaweed extract to maintain the head on the Pint of Black Stuff. (One of the reasons Guinness is so rich in iron, and is given to blood doners after donation in Ireland, and is recommended to pregnant women in moderation). This seaweed is collected at the full moon, as it’s nutrient cycle maximises it usefulness at this time. No-one knows why, it just does.

Guinness are a multi-billion dollar corporation, and don’t do silly things. Maybe they just research a little deeper than most, and realise that the old traditions are useful additions to modern technology. They’ve been using the same methods for 300 years (and the exact same yeastculture). Because it works. And at one of their international plants (in Nigeria, if I remember correctly) they required a source of water. After a failed geo-tech survey, thy employed a dowser, and got what they needed.

Enough said?

We all have the planet’s best interest at heart. Does it matter if the motivation is Gaian philosophy, Old Religions, self interest, familial loyalty or even, (dare I say it), profit, if our methods conspire to produce the same results?

So include all those who share your peramculture ambitions, even if you don’t fully understand their way of operating. To do otherwise is to do the planet a disservice, and it needs all the help it can get.

Ray

P.S. Before I’m called a sell-out, I should note that my employment in the multi-national industries is in an environmental monitoring capacity, ensuring licence adherence. And I’m a member of the Green Party Science and Technology Advisory Group.

I am a geobiologist, a geomancer and a dowser. I am not a scientist and neither is GS.

I studied permaculture 21 years ago and have been either perusing or involved in the permaculture media for many years. The old this-isn’t-scientific-enough debate in permaculture is dead on the ground and a total waste of energy… (And, by the way, I never discuss what I do with sceptics, it’s a waste of time!)

I just dont know why my name and personal email address remains stuck in the message fields of this blog, as if prompting people to write hate mail to me. I’ver surely had enough of that!

The idea that permaculture can be an eco-spiritual practise can be very inspiring to some people (obviously it’s not for everyone). Permaculture is a discipline of landscape design, after all, and in pre-Christian times all people considered the Earth sacred and interacted with the energies they perceived in it. It was a blasphemy to destroy the environment. A return to such an ethic wouldn’t go astray. I shall continue to promote a more sensitive style of permaculture design (as we don’t live in a GS dictatorship). Permaculture has been too macho for too long.

Society is kept in a state of peace when there’s respect for the diversity of cultural beliefs. We can do without GS’s self styled Grand Inquisition. Going on the warpath is stupid, especially when it’s done in such an infantile tone. I’ve had enough patronising insults!

And I want my email address removed from here too!