I’m an electronic engineer by trade, and I work in the pharmaceutical, brewing and dairy industries.

So I have no vested interest in any way here.

However, doing things according to old natural cycles, as is ridiculed here, is inherent in all of the industries I work. People do it because it works for them, even if they didn’t fully understand why it works. Mocking it because you don’t understand how it works just reveals one’s own gross ignorance and narrow-mindedness.

So, it occurs to me that the attack on Alanna Moore (whom I don’t know and have never met), for promoting a system of divining that has worked for generations (and Government Departments have engaged the services of dowsers for years), is at best a misguided attempt to appear knowledgeable, and at worse is the type of sneery, self congratulatory, know-it-all approach that serves only to alienate those that should be assisting each other.

Of the many ways that people use knowledge that works, even though we don’t fully understand how, I’ll just include:

For example: Milk collected at night has a higher level of seratonin.

One very popular product in Ireland at the moment is milk by Lullaby Dairies (it’s in all Superqinn stores) It’s used as a natural bedtime sleep promoter, as seratonin has proveable sleep enhancing effects.

Wyeth Medica Ireland makes the contraceptive pill, a hormonally based medicine, which is dispensed in 21day+7day break form. When I asked the head of pharmacology why it used this timing, he said it was because the normal female hormonal cycle was 28 days, in common with moon cycles (he made complicated allowances for the extra day) Wyeth Medica are a multi-billion dollar corporation, and don’t do silly things. Maybe they just research a little deeper than most.

Guinness (Diageo) use a particular seaweed extract to maintain the head on the Pint of Black Stuff. (One of the reasons Guinness is so rich in iron, and is given to blood doners after donation in Ireland, and is recommended to pregnant women in moderation). This seaweed is collected at the full moon, as it’s nutrient cycle maximises it usefulness at this time. No-one knows why, it just does.

Guinness are a multi-billion dollar corporation, and don’t do silly things. Maybe they just research a little deeper than most, and realise that the old traditions are useful additions to modern technology. They’ve been using the same methods for 300 years (and the exact same yeastculture). Because it works. And at one of their international plants (in Nigeria, if I remember correctly) they required a source of water. After a failed geo-tech survey, thy employed a dowser, and got what they needed.

Enough said?

We all have the planet’s best interest at heart. Does it matter if the motivation is Gaian philosophy, Old Religions, self interest, familial loyalty or even, (dare I say it), profit, if our methods conspire to produce the same results?

So include all those who share your peramculture ambitions, even if you don’t fully understand their way of operating. To do otherwise is to do the planet a disservice, and it needs all the help it can get.

Ray

P.S. Before I’m called a sell-out, I should note that my employment in the multi-national industries is in an environmental monitoring capacity, ensuring licence adherence. And I’m a member of the Green Party Science and Technology Advisory Group.

Interesting “debate”, a pity that most of the writers are awfully ill-informed on their subjects. (Hard to believe they have time to write this stuff, shouldnt they be out saving the world?). I’m not in my home office, otherwise I would pull out those missing references to investigations of dowsing using scientific instrumentation. But if you have access to a copy of Christopher Bird’s massive volume ‘Divining’ it’s all in there. If there wasnt a scientific aspect to dowsing there wouldnt be geologists in Russia being taught how to dowse and I wouldn’t have met the president of the Russian Scientific Dowsing Society, when I was a speaker at the International Dowsing Congress held in the UK in 2003.

As an international teacher of dowsing, as a qualified permaculture teacher, and as an author of critically acclaimed books on the application of dowsing to enhance life and gardening/farming – I have my reputation to defend here. I dont need ignorant people getting on my back. Especially when they obviously havent read my books (and seen the copious lists of references in them!) You can order my books from Counter Culture in the UK. (They are also published by Acres USA and elsewhere.)

I often suggest to my students to use the scientific method to test the usefulness of the experimental technologies that I’m teaching about. In other words – does it help the cabbages to grow bigger or not?

‘New age religion’ has no interest to me. I’m a practical, hands-on gal. That’s what my students love. It’s all geared to improving health and wellbeing, and helping the environment. So why I have been singled out seems most unfair. Why not spit venom at the people who channel info from Mars or wherever and gives no benefit. Dont put me in that bag. Or any bag.

Having decided to devote my life to helping the environment 30 years ago I have spent years giving my time in a voluntary capacity to Greenpeace, Permaculture International (I was a director for 6 years) and other environmental organisations, I find it incredulous to be attacked verbally for doing things that I dont do, by someone who purports to also being environmentally minded! In my experience of the environmental movement, when the ‘people care’ side of things is avoided we cant go forward at all. It is love that makes the world go round. To project ideas from anger or fear is unsustainable and these feelings act like poison in one’s system…

For you bloggers who want to know a little more of what I am promoting, look out for my upcoming You Tube offering on the subject of permaculture and geomancy (or call it geobiology, if you want it to sound more scientific!), which was filmed for Irish TV on July 26th and will be screened in the autumn coming. (It has been Graham’s voluminous comments that have inspired me to post it!)

Otherwise, I’m much too busy to be engaged in any argument on the subject, I have books to write and films to make, all of which aim to make people more sensitive to and caring for their environment.

Grahams public and private comments are verging on the libellous. And if any more negative aspersions are spread about me I will be considering legal advice to help protect my good name.

Alanna Moore

It seems we are speaking at different levels. In the past I have noticed you have read some about Spiral Dynamics. Perhaps this model can helps us begin communicating with each other instead of writing AT each other. To use spiral dynamics to try and pull out of the muck… What I am trying to express is that people at different levels of consciousness on the spiral of human behavioral development use different sets of values and symbols to describe the world around them. The rational, materialistic view that you are using to fight against the mystical, irrational and faith-based view is only another stop on the spiral of human evolution. As Clare Graves (the creator of the model Spiral Dynamics is based on) and Ken Wilber both point out: it is of the upmost we respect the views and values of people at all places on the spiral. We may disagree, and we may see the need to help people transition or develop new behavior and understandings to help weave together a web of cooperation and interdependence to get us out of this global mess we’ve created…but haranguing people over their beliefs only polarizes the issue.

I am a scientist and permaculturalist myself. I happen to often agree with the nuts and bolts of your arguments, and am very happy to see people in your neck of the woods take such a leading role in creating a new opportunity for regenerative culture to take root. However I differ in my view that we need to create more schisms in our society. It seems to me that singling out new agey spiritualists as the problem is an inability to discern between different levelson the spiral. At every (arbitrary) point on the spectrum of human behavioral evolution humans have made massive mistakes. Purely rational and scientific thought as filtered through Herbert Spencer created social Darwinism: the rational apology for over-predation on ourselves and the world.

The next level according to spiral dynamics is a relativistic and post modern view allowing room for care and cooperation. unfortunately it gets a bit bogged down in the details and we need to combine the ability to empathize and see many truths, with the ability to pick a truth (the world is limited and we must therefor intelligently limit ourselves) and move forward.

The amazing thing about Spiral Dynamics is it give us a model to discuss people in a fairly neutral zone…and I woudl like to take this opportunity to remind you that each new level on the spiral of human consciousness includes and transcends the level before…just like an ecosystem in succession. Spiritual ideas will remain a part of our culture no matter how far we evolve up the spiral of consciousness…in some core beliefs and principles seem to simple be re-articulated in a new way to be applicable to people in the here and now. The Secret…a movie is thought was simplistic and ridiculous…offers on the positive side a reminder to be greatfull and keep hope in your heart…to not get bogged down in depression over things you cannot control. This is a valuable reminder in this age of global climate change and peak everything.

I would hope as a Mollisonian Permaculturalis (as you started the thread out with a quote form Mollison I assume you a member of the choir) that you would focus on seeing this “problem” you are busy highlighting as an opportunity for growth, and learn to speak to those people who identify with ephemeral values and symbols than you use to describe your ideas. Learning to translate ideas and speak across cultural boundaries is the path of the peacekeeper. As Permaculturalists we have chosen to keep peace with the natural world, and we all know humans are a part of the natural world. So a tool for permaculture is seeing peoples beliefs as a resource and weaving them into the duscussion, thereby helping create the oportunity for them to emerge and transcend what they previously thought and add more diversity and reselience to their mental ecologies…allowing our culture to do the same, and as a conswequence allowing us to regain our place as keystone species of a diverse and amazing planetary ecosystem.

The first step is making peace with those that you would call enemies.

I hope I am not one of them, for we are working together in a shared enterprise and I for one would rather shake your hand and congratulate you for your hard work…and have a calm discussion about what we can do to empower each other.

“If you challenge the beliefs of others, you are being really nasty; a nasty person just cannot be right; therefore, proof that you are wrong.”

This approach doesnt get us any closer to the truth, does it? which i am arguing can only be decided by discussing the evidence (something you manage to avoid doing completely).

You say:

Permaculture is an ETHICAL design methidology and one of the three core ethics is people care….in my mind people care implies respecting peoples value systems. If I am meticulously studying agroforestry and I choose to name micro-organisms faeries…or I hold on to a deep spiritual belief in the power of intention, or if I happen to have the ability to sense water coursing under the earth, who are you to take away these ideas? What gives you or anyone else to attack and incite others to attack any belief that is not directly harming you…or harming anyone for that matter.”

There is something quite oppressive about this hypocrisy: an attempt to silence debate unless it agrees with your own views. There is nothing in people care in this- as Mollison makes clear in the opening quote, do discourage people from critical thinking and rational inquiry is to disempower them.

I have also gone to great lengths in the post and comments to explain why these beliefs are indeed inherently damaging to the sustainabilty project and involve having very strange bedfellows: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7284494.stm

You sir are an apologist far fraud and disinformation: there is no scientific evidence at all for dowsing or fairies or faith healing and the perpetuation of these beliefs is indeed damaging to society as a whole. Where is the “people care” in defending con-merchants?

To claim as Alanna Moore and co that there is scientific evidence is called “lying”- and yes, there is clearly a financial incentive here in selling books and magazines and workshops.

None of this has anything to do with permaculture which is the practical application of empirically testable knowledge about eco-systems.

“I don’t need science to tell me about the problems associated with industrialized society…from clear cuts to tenement housing, from consumerism to strip mining…all of this forms a social fabric that many people would say is caused by a reductionist, individualist and competitive worldview…the same world view you are claiming should prevail over “woo woo new agey types”…”

I think you misunderstand- there is nothing “rational” about clear-cuts and consumerism, clear-cuts or iindividualism and competition- these are not the worldviews that we need to create sustainabilty; try this line of “reasoning” and apply it to climate change science: are you saying that the scientists who warn about rising C02 levels are wrong because they use the same kind of rational thought that brought us human overshoot?

Are you saying that you dont need science (for example to use a computer)- that you can “divine” the likely effects of forest destruction or sea-level rise; that you have “looked into your heart” to find accurate figures on population increase, topsoil loss or species extinction?

The kind of thought processes you express here are so confused and contradictory that they only serve as an example of the danger of these ideas going unchallenged.

I maintain that the widespread and unquestioning, naive and foolish belief in the ability of the mind to alter physical reality, as described in the professional scam “The Secret” has nothing to do with environmental ethics and everything to do with maintaining the narcissistic delusions of materialism and anthropocentrism.

And by the way, I devote very little time to challenging woo-woo and nearly all my time to practicing and teaching rational responses to the planetary crisis.

To ridicule belief systems, how ever dissonant from your own, and to incite other people to carry on the attack is not in alignment with the core principles of your chosen discipline. Permaculture is an ETHICAL design methidology and one of the three core ethics is people care….in my mind people care implies respecting peoples value systems. If I am meticulously studying agroforestry and I choose to name micro-organisms faeries…or I hold on to a deep spiritual belief in the power of intention, or if I happen to have the ability to sense water coursing under the earth, who are you to take away these ideas? What gives you or anyone else to attack and incite others to attack any belief that is not directly harming you…or harming anyone for that matter.

I suppose at this point you are going all red in the cheeks remembering about to exclaim that people who hold what you would term irrational sets of beliefs are holding us back from seeing the cold hard truth about peak oil and climate change…perhaps over population…the triumvirate of doom and gloom.

Poppycock.

I don’t need science to tell me about the problems associated with industrialized society…from clear cuts to tenement housing, from consumerism to strip mining…all of this forms a social fabric that many people would say is caused by a reductionist, individualist and competitive worldview…the same world view you are claiming should prevail over “woo woo new agey types”…

Perhaps our lesson is to discern what we each value and what helps us stay steady and make sustainable and realistic decisions in the face of fear, loathing, and madness.

If you choose hard line reductionist science to bring you to the table..so be it…but when you get here, don’t waste your energy shouting at others because they took a different path to the realization that things must change.

The bottom line, after all that, is that instead of going on the war path against your allies…people who care for the earth and are trying to do something about it…why not use that sharp mind and clever tongue of yours to focus in on helping shift society to be inclusive of environmental values instead of attacking the fellow next to you for not wearing the right color…

So should we say that aligning ourselves in any way with the money economy is inherently destructive to the sustainability project?

Personally I’d go for a yes on that one, while being aware that taking such a position dogmatically would severely reduce my range of allies, and make it very difficult to lead day-to-day life in the overdeveloped world.

Actually, thinking a bit more about this, I realise I can live with people who believe in planting by the phases of the moon, pendulum power, crystal healing, New Age spirituality… These may all be wrong-headed ideas but the people who believe them aren’t bad people, just mistaken. In fact, most of my friends believe in planting by the moon, and most of them are better gardeners than me (by the way, the squash seeds failed to come up – probably it was too cold and wet for them). But through discussions with them, I have noticed that some are also starting to be a bit more skeptical.

What I really can’t stand, in fact, is those who make a living, a career or a name out of other people’s credulity. People who take people’s desire to believe – combined with their own self-deception – and turn it into a comfortable living. Sadly, the alternative scene in Spain is infested with these parasites. Geobiology this, pyramid scheme that, Hopi tribal message the other, balancing therapy, facilitation, blah blah…

So in the end, it’s not people’s alignment with New Age beliefs that bothers me – it’s the fact that these beliefs, whether sincerely held or insincerely feigned, are nothing but a cover for the far more conventional desire to make money, get respect or exercise power over others while contributing little or nothing.

Like I’ve mentioned before on your site, you can line me up firmly on the skeptical permaculture side of the argument.

Why do Permaculture Magazine tolerate all manner of New Age claptrap in among the sensible, scientific stuff? Well, they’re a lifestyle mag, not a peer-reviewed journal, and they would probably go out of business if they offended their readership. Remember that the vast majority of people – not just people with an interest in “green” stuff – are extremely credulous and willing to belief whatever sounds good; and challenging people’s deeply cherished beliefs is seldom likely to win them over.

This is perhaps especially true of people living in “alternative” places like Totnes. I say “perhaps” because there is, anyway, a laudable skepticism about anything “mainstream” in these places – but this skepticism, sadly, doesn’t extend to the alternative theories that Bill Mollison calls “woo woo”.

People seem to need something to believe in. Is it worse for them to believe in Money or in fairies? Frankly, either one seems a pretty poor basis for living.