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	<title>Comments on: Bursting point:  The World’s Unsustainable Population</title>
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	<link>http://zone5.org/2007/11/bursting-point-the-world%e2%80%99s-unsustainable-population/</link>
	<description>...on the edge between Nature and Culture</description>
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		<title>By: Indiana Jones</title>
		<link>http://zone5.org/2007/11/bursting-point-the-world%e2%80%99s-unsustainable-population/comment-page-1/#comment-37997</link>
		<dc:creator>Indiana Jones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Mar 2009 01:02:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zone5.org/2007/11/11/bursting-point-the-world%e2%80%99s-unsustainable-population/#comment-37997</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Absolutely outstanding.&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Absolutely outstanding.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Michael Connolly</title>
		<link>http://zone5.org/2007/11/bursting-point-the-world%e2%80%99s-unsustainable-population/comment-page-1/#comment-14948</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Connolly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jan 2008 20:44:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zone5.org/2007/11/11/bursting-point-the-world%e2%80%99s-unsustainable-population/#comment-14948</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Hi Graham another great discussion. You appear to ask the question Why is population growth not up for discussion. Does anyone seriously believe that the pope, Israel, the Palestinians, Indonesia, Saudi Arabia or the United States of America are willing to listen to arguments for voluntary or mandatory population control, the simple answer is no, so what is there to discuss. The world could not afford for us in the west to get rich enough to go through demographic transition so the idea that the third world will achieve it is absurd. We are indeed in overshoot and crash will soon follow discussions about limiting population growth are facile and we should limit our discussions to what we can hope to influence. In the next decade or two climate change will create many millions of refuges most of which will be knocking at our (first world) door, and at the same time energy decent will be undermining our carrying capacity.  Given how we react now to a few thousand economic migrants while we are living high on the energy hog the questions we must ask ourselves is what these pressures will do to our political and social institutions when there is not enough hog to go around. The transitory depression of the 1930’s gave the world Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, Franco and imperial Japan what will energy decent give us.&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Graham another great discussion. You appear to ask the question Why is population growth not up for discussion. Does anyone seriously believe that the pope, Israel, the Palestinians, Indonesia, Saudi Arabia or the United States of America are willing to listen to arguments for voluntary or mandatory population control, the simple answer is no, so what is there to discuss. The world could not afford for us in the west to get rich enough to go through demographic transition so the idea that the third world will achieve it is absurd. We are indeed in overshoot and crash will soon follow discussions about limiting population growth are facile and we should limit our discussions to what we can hope to influence. In the next decade or two climate change will create many millions of refuges most of which will be knocking at our (first world) door, and at the same time energy decent will be undermining our carrying capacity.  Given how we react now to a few thousand economic migrants while we are living high on the energy hog the questions we must ask ourselves is what these pressures will do to our political and social institutions when there is not enough hog to go around. The transitory depression of the 1930’s gave the world Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, Franco and imperial Japan what will energy decent give us.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: George Peattie</title>
		<link>http://zone5.org/2007/11/bursting-point-the-world%e2%80%99s-unsustainable-population/comment-page-1/#comment-11357</link>
		<dc:creator>George Peattie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Nov 2007 13:30:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zone5.org/2007/11/11/bursting-point-the-world%e2%80%99s-unsustainable-population/#comment-11357</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I agree population control is a key issue and don&#039;t disagree with Graham&#039;s points. I am however not entirely convinced its a taboo subject avoided because of fear of being branded racist, xenophobic or imperialist. I think the problem is simpler than that, it&#039;s avoided because of the enormity of the problem, just how do you limit population?
It is pretty much a done deal in most of the west, if we didn&#039;t have immigration populations would be falling. How do you go about getting other countries to control their population growth. If they don&#039;t take action what do you do? I know we have the same problem with consumption of resources but the issue is just far more personal than how your food is grown.
For me this is the reason I don&#039;t often discuss population, if you can&#039;t persuade a country it is in it&#039;s best interest to control population growth what do you do next?  Sanctions, ban all immigration (stop the outflow of educated slow breeders), stop aid, proscribe organisations that promote uncontrolled reproduction?&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree population control is a key issue and don&#8217;t disagree with Graham&#8217;s points. I am however not entirely convinced its a taboo subject avoided because of fear of being branded racist, xenophobic or imperialist. I think the problem is simpler than that, it&#8217;s avoided because of the enormity of the problem, just how do you limit population?
It is pretty much a done deal in most of the west, if we didn&#8217;t have immigration populations would be falling. How do you go about getting other countries to control their population growth. If they don&#8217;t take action what do you do? I know we have the same problem with consumption of resources but the issue is just far more personal than how your food is grown.
For me this is the reason I don&#8217;t often discuss population, if you can&#8217;t persuade a country it is in it&#8217;s best interest to control population growth what do you do next?  Sanctions, ban all immigration (stop the outflow of educated slow breeders), stop aid, proscribe organisations that promote uncontrolled reproduction?</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Baz</title>
		<link>http://zone5.org/2007/11/bursting-point-the-world%e2%80%99s-unsustainable-population/comment-page-1/#comment-11329</link>
		<dc:creator>Baz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Nov 2007 02:18:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zone5.org/2007/11/11/bursting-point-the-world%e2%80%99s-unsustainable-population/#comment-11329</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Saudi Arabia doesn&#039;t count because while it is affluent, culturally it is light years from a western free market economy. Its affluence is due to its role as oil exporter, and that has allowed it to be affluent, but not change culturally, for example in the role of women: these days most western families have poth parents work (to a degree) simply because it&#039;s hard to pay the mortguage if they don&#039;t.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;My key point is that I am not suggesting that population decreases as affluence increases. I am suggesting that population decreases as the cost-benefit to the individual of having a child increases, something that naturally happens in the west.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;As for wars, no war has ever &lt;em&gt;really&lt;/em&gt; reduced popluation. WW2 killed 80 million people, but that&#039;s a drop in the bucket compared to the 2billion odd who were alive at the time, and was far outweighed by the baby boom once the war was over.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I&#039;m not suggesting that it&#039;s a perfect solution, although it is better than anything else. Certainly it is better at popluation control than war or famine.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;So what to do?&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;1) Try to change western society to gain better efficiencies, and ultimately become environmentally neutral. It&#039;s going to be tough. I won&#039;t deny it.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;2) Keep working to improve health and education and welfare in the third world. (If child mortality falls then, people have less need to have children, if there is an adequate social security, then people don&#039;t need to have children to look after them in thier old age.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;The worst possible outcome for the environment would be if the west were to slip back to an agrarian culture: then it would once again make sense to have a lot of children, and to slash and burn to make as much food as possible.&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Saudi Arabia doesn&#8217;t count because while it is affluent, culturally it is light years from a western free market economy. Its affluence is due to its role as oil exporter, and that has allowed it to be affluent, but not change culturally, for example in the role of women: these days most western families have poth parents work (to a degree) simply because it&#8217;s hard to pay the mortguage if they don&#8217;t.</p>

<p>My key point is that I am not suggesting that population decreases as affluence increases. I am suggesting that population decreases as the cost-benefit to the individual of having a child increases, something that naturally happens in the west.</p>

<p>As for wars, no war has ever <em>really</em> reduced popluation. WW2 killed 80 million people, but that&#8217;s a drop in the bucket compared to the 2billion odd who were alive at the time, and was far outweighed by the baby boom once the war was over.</p>

<p>I&#8217;m not suggesting that it&#8217;s a perfect solution, although it is better than anything else. Certainly it is better at popluation control than war or famine.</p>

<p>So what to do?</p>

<p>1) Try to change western society to gain better efficiencies, and ultimately become environmentally neutral. It&#8217;s going to be tough. I won&#8217;t deny it.</p>

<p>2) Keep working to improve health and education and welfare in the third world. (If child mortality falls then, people have less need to have children, if there is an adequate social security, then people don&#8217;t need to have children to look after them in thier old age.</p>

<p>The worst possible outcome for the environment would be if the west were to slip back to an agrarian culture: then it would once again make sense to have a lot of children, and to slash and burn to make as much food as possible.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: WONSTON SMITH, MINISTER OF TRUTH</title>
		<link>http://zone5.org/2007/11/bursting-point-the-world%e2%80%99s-unsustainable-population/comment-page-1/#comment-11328</link>
		<dc:creator>WONSTON SMITH, MINISTER OF TRUTH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Nov 2007 01:16:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zone5.org/2007/11/11/bursting-point-the-world%e2%80%99s-unsustainable-population/#comment-11328</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;IF THE SUBJECT ISNT ABOUT OVERPOPULATION NOT WORTH DISCUSSING. GOOD STUFF- I&#039;VE BE ON IT FOR 40 YEARS AND IN 07 NOBODY WANTS TO EVEN TALK ABOUT IT. CONTINUE TO CONTAMINIATE YOUR BED AND SOME NIGHT YOU WILL DIE IN  YOUR OWN WASTE.  THE END OF LIVING THE BEGINNING OF SURVIVAL. PEAK ALL- DUE TO POPULATION OVERSHOOT. GOOD LUCK ALL!&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>IF THE SUBJECT ISNT ABOUT OVERPOPULATION NOT WORTH DISCUSSING. GOOD STUFF- I&#8217;VE BE ON IT FOR 40 YEARS AND IN 07 NOBODY WANTS TO EVEN TALK ABOUT IT. CONTINUE TO CONTAMINIATE YOUR BED AND SOME NIGHT YOU WILL DIE IN  YOUR OWN WASTE.  THE END OF LIVING THE BEGINNING OF SURVIVAL. PEAK ALL- DUE TO POPULATION OVERSHOOT. GOOD LUCK ALL!</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Walter Weidner</title>
		<link>http://zone5.org/2007/11/bursting-point-the-world%e2%80%99s-unsustainable-population/comment-page-1/#comment-11323</link>
		<dc:creator>Walter Weidner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Nov 2007 18:47:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zone5.org/2007/11/11/bursting-point-the-world%e2%80%99s-unsustainable-population/#comment-11323</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;There is no doubt that the population increase in this world is getting to the point of where the only solution is a WW3. This would cut down on the poor, the unfortunate and those who least deserve to be eliminated. 
WW1 was a starter, WW2 was almost successful. WW3 is just around the corner. Why do I (hate) to believe it?
Water shortage, Oil shortfall, relative few obscene super rich control the &quot;not so well off&quot; Billions. One cannot control these situations with military power forever. 
Einstein was asked &quot;What do you think the kind of weapons will be used in WW3&quot;. His answer: I don&#039;t know, but the wars after WW3 will be fought with sticks and stones. BTW. I am a pacifist, I do not believe in killings, torture and other extreme measures.
W.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is no doubt that the population increase in this world is getting to the point of where the only solution is a WW3. This would cut down on the poor, the unfortunate and those who least deserve to be eliminated. 
WW1 was a starter, WW2 was almost successful. WW3 is just around the corner. Why do I (hate) to believe it?
Water shortage, Oil shortfall, relative few obscene super rich control the &#8220;not so well off&#8221; Billions. One cannot control these situations with military power forever. 
Einstein was asked &#8220;What do you think the kind of weapons will be used in WW3&#8243;. His answer: I don&#8217;t know, but the wars after WW3 will be fought with sticks and stones. BTW. I am a pacifist, I do not believe in killings, torture and other extreme measures.
W.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Graham</title>
		<link>http://zone5.org/2007/11/bursting-point-the-world%e2%80%99s-unsustainable-population/comment-page-1/#comment-11322</link>
		<dc:creator>Graham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Nov 2007 15:15:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zone5.org/2007/11/11/bursting-point-the-world%e2%80%99s-unsustainable-population/#comment-11322</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Why doesnt Saudi Arabia count? Surely for your point to be valid you would need to demonstrate that the &quot;transference of affluence&quot; thesis which my article is challenging is applicable in the countries with currently the highest population growth.
My point is this will not happen because the wealth of the west depends to a large part on appropriating the wealth of the majority world; in other words, the world as a whole will never reach the consumer lifestyles that the west has.
But even if some areas were to reach a comfortable level which would lead to the process you are describing, it will take a generation or so before this shows up in a decline in birth rate. We are up against the clock and demographic momentum ensures that population will continue to rise globally regardless. We are already at bursting point in population just at the time  we are also hitting peak oil and a decline in many other areas of the natural resource base.
Again, I have also tried to tie together the two issues of population and consumption- a rise in affluence may lead to a decline in birth rate but an increase in resource consumption.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why doesnt Saudi Arabia count? Surely for your point to be valid you would need to demonstrate that the &#8220;transference of affluence&#8221; thesis which my article is challenging is applicable in the countries with currently the highest population growth.
My point is this will not happen because the wealth of the west depends to a large part on appropriating the wealth of the majority world; in other words, the world as a whole will never reach the consumer lifestyles that the west has.
But even if some areas were to reach a comfortable level which would lead to the process you are describing, it will take a generation or so before this shows up in a decline in birth rate. We are up against the clock and demographic momentum ensures that population will continue to rise globally regardless. We are already at bursting point in population just at the time  we are also hitting peak oil and a decline in many other areas of the natural resource base.
Again, I have also tried to tie together the two issues of population and consumption- a rise in affluence may lead to a decline in birth rate but an increase in resource consumption.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Baz</title>
		<link>http://zone5.org/2007/11/bursting-point-the-world%e2%80%99s-unsustainable-population/comment-page-1/#comment-11320</link>
		<dc:creator>Baz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Nov 2007 14:10:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zone5.org/2007/11/11/bursting-point-the-world%e2%80%99s-unsustainable-population/#comment-11320</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_territories_by_fertility_rate&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_territories_by_fertility_rate" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_territories_by_fertility_rate</a></p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Baz</title>
		<link>http://zone5.org/2007/11/bursting-point-the-world%e2%80%99s-unsustainable-population/comment-page-1/#comment-11319</link>
		<dc:creator>Baz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Nov 2007 14:09:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zone5.org/2007/11/11/bursting-point-the-world%e2%80%99s-unsustainable-population/#comment-11319</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;According to this Ireland has a replacement rate of 1.9 ish - anything under 2 is a decreasing population. I Think that their population expansion must be driven by immigration.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>According to this Ireland has a replacement rate of 1.9 ish &#8211; anything under 2 is a decreasing population. I Think that their population expansion must be driven by immigration.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Baz</title>
		<link>http://zone5.org/2007/11/bursting-point-the-world%e2%80%99s-unsustainable-population/comment-page-1/#comment-11318</link>
		<dc:creator>Baz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Nov 2007 13:57:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zone5.org/2007/11/11/bursting-point-the-world%e2%80%99s-unsustainable-population/#comment-11318</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I&#039;m neither a sociologist nor economist. I am a greenie/socialist by nature, so let me preface this comment with &quot;I don&#039;t really know but&quot;...&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Let me play devils advocate for a second and say that IMO there is a single very good mechanism for population control, it is simple, effective, and won&#039;t have human rights groups picketing your office.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;It&#039;s going to be controversial here, because, while it might slow, or even reverse population growth, but it does cause a lot of other issues:-&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;It&#039;s called a western free market economy.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;My argument is this: Kids are expensive.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;In a modern western economy, raising children means either the loss of an income, or paying for child care, then clothing, then education, all of which cuts into the parent&#039;s personal income and freedom, pretty much indefinitely. From this what does the parent gain? Obviously the ability to pass on one&#039;s genes is no small thing, but once you&#039;ve had one, maybe two kids, with today&#039;s mortality rates, then your genetic heritage looks secure. Besides that however, well there isn&#039;t a lot. Modern adults are expected to have the means to look after themselves well into their dotage, with only the slimmest amount of token help from their offspring.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;More than two and you get diminishing returns. Each child  only adds to the cost, while only increasing your odds(which are already pretty good) of passing on your genes only marginally.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Compare this to an agrarian society with little or no education. There a child is relatively cheap to raise, as you are already growing food, and have no education expenses to speak of. Child mortality is high, and children are expected to look after parents in their old age - children are the parents pension. In that case it make sense for somebody to have as many children as they can, thus population boom.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;As for proof, well let me give you this: if you show me a western economy(with a few possible exceptions, and Saudi Arabia doesn&#039;t count, sorry), then I will show you a country that without immigration, or government bribes to have children, can&#039;t maintain its replacement rate, or at least is very close.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m neither a sociologist nor economist. I am a greenie/socialist by nature, so let me preface this comment with &#8220;I don&#8217;t really know but&#8221;&#8230;</p>

<p>Let me play devils advocate for a second and say that IMO there is a single very good mechanism for population control, it is simple, effective, and won&#8217;t have human rights groups picketing your office.</p>

<p>It&#8217;s going to be controversial here, because, while it might slow, or even reverse population growth, but it does cause a lot of other issues:-</p>

<p>It&#8217;s called a western free market economy.</p>

<p>My argument is this: Kids are expensive.</p>

<p>In a modern western economy, raising children means either the loss of an income, or paying for child care, then clothing, then education, all of which cuts into the parent&#8217;s personal income and freedom, pretty much indefinitely. From this what does the parent gain? Obviously the ability to pass on one&#8217;s genes is no small thing, but once you&#8217;ve had one, maybe two kids, with today&#8217;s mortality rates, then your genetic heritage looks secure. Besides that however, well there isn&#8217;t a lot. Modern adults are expected to have the means to look after themselves well into their dotage, with only the slimmest amount of token help from their offspring.</p>

<p>More than two and you get diminishing returns. Each child  only adds to the cost, while only increasing your odds(which are already pretty good) of passing on your genes only marginally.</p>

<p>Compare this to an agrarian society with little or no education. There a child is relatively cheap to raise, as you are already growing food, and have no education expenses to speak of. Child mortality is high, and children are expected to look after parents in their old age &#8211; children are the parents pension. In that case it make sense for somebody to have as many children as they can, thus population boom.</p>

<p>As for proof, well let me give you this: if you show me a western economy(with a few possible exceptions, and Saudi Arabia doesn&#8217;t count, sorry), then I will show you a country that without immigration, or government bribes to have children, can&#8217;t maintain its replacement rate, or at least is very close.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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