Comments on: The Free Energy Delusion http://zone5.org/2007/07/the-free-energy-delusion/ ...on the edge between Nature and Culture Thu, 03 May 2012 05:36:52 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Mick Mack http://zone5.org/2007/07/the-free-energy-delusion/comment-page-1/#comment-8766 Mick Mack Mon, 13 Aug 2007 20:58:16 +0000 http://zone5.org/2007/07/23/the-free-energy-delusion/#comment-8766 <p>I'm inclined to agree with Kurt here. There are no absolutes except for change and while the 'Laws' - i.e. our current most-widely accepted explanation - of Thermodynamics is helpful to understanding the physics of energy it does not explain the potential for energy that is as yet unexplained such as ether - a concept accepted as potential if unproven by Einstein incidentally - in space.</p> <p>'Free' in the economic sense is not a possibility under a dominant economic system that commodifies everything it touches, but in principle is possible. 'Free' in the sense that does it have untold ecological consequences? Well we don't know yet as we haven't made use of it. There have been many delusional Scientists and those who sit smug in the belief that they have the absolute answer should think again, because our knowledge of the Universe is never complete and they may yet find cause to bite their tongue.</p> <p>The capacity for humans to innovate and use their ingenuity to move technology forward isn't something that permaculture or any other sytem of social organisation will ever stifle or would they see us for ever ensconced in an 17th Century idyll that never existed.</p> <p>Nikola Tesla, a man who would leave all those here in his wake in terms of his understanding of the potential of Natural phenomena or Viktor Schauberger, certainly believed is was possible to achieve a more mature and socially benevolent use of unexplained energy potential.</p> <p>I think there is a confusion of the misuse of knowledge under a system that exploits for private gain and a system that seeks to deliver the benefits of scientific investigation with the ecological consequences of such decisions to the fore. which will only take place under very different economic/political conditions.</p> <p>Graham's reference to the BBC article does not dismiss the arguments, but simply shows an article relating to one man's claims; after all there are plenty of known examples, right now, where innovation has been stifled to serve an economic interest. Take the Pharmaceutical industry for example... Please...</p> <p>Please show a bit more acceptance for the fact that you don't know all there is to know, but that we can agree that 'Free' energy is "not currently available".</p> I’m inclined to agree with Kurt here. There are no absolutes except for change and while the ‘Laws’ – i.e. our current most-widely accepted explanation – of Thermodynamics is helpful to understanding the physics of energy it does not explain the potential for energy that is as yet unexplained such as ether – a concept accepted as potential if unproven by Einstein incidentally – in space.

‘Free’ in the economic sense is not a possibility under a dominant economic system that commodifies everything it touches, but in principle is possible. ‘Free’ in the sense that does it have untold ecological consequences? Well we don’t know yet as we haven’t made use of it. There have been many delusional Scientists and those who sit smug in the belief that they have the absolute answer should think again, because our knowledge of the Universe is never complete and they may yet find cause to bite their tongue.

The capacity for humans to innovate and use their ingenuity to move technology forward isn’t something that permaculture or any other sytem of social organisation will ever stifle or would they see us for ever ensconced in an 17th Century idyll that never existed.

Nikola Tesla, a man who would leave all those here in his wake in terms of his understanding of the potential of Natural phenomena or Viktor Schauberger, certainly believed is was possible to achieve a more mature and socially benevolent use of unexplained energy potential.

I think there is a confusion of the misuse of knowledge under a system that exploits for private gain and a system that seeks to deliver the benefits of scientific investigation with the ecological consequences of such decisions to the fore. which will only take place under very different economic/political conditions.

Graham’s reference to the BBC article does not dismiss the arguments, but simply shows an article relating to one man’s claims; after all there are plenty of known examples, right now, where innovation has been stifled to serve an economic interest. Take the Pharmaceutical industry for example… Please…

Please show a bit more acceptance for the fact that you don’t know all there is to know, but that we can agree that ‘Free’ energy is “not currently available”.

]]> By: Mike Grenville http://zone5.org/2007/07/the-free-energy-delusion/comment-page-1/#comment-8596 Mike Grenville Fri, 10 Aug 2007 14:31:33 +0000 http://zone5.org/2007/07/23/the-free-energy-delusion/#comment-8596 <p>good points but there is another that was not emphasised in the article.</p> <p>If we found a new source of 'free' energy we would just reach a peak in some other finite resource sooner - e.g. precious metals, minerals, even soil.</p> <p>Finding a new source of cheap energy would be another disaster until we have really learnt to consume less and live in a way that can be sustained over generations.</p> good points but there is another that was not emphasised in the article.

If we found a new source of ‘free’ energy we would just reach a peak in some other finite resource sooner – e.g. precious metals, minerals, even soil.

Finding a new source of cheap energy would be another disaster until we have really learnt to consume less and live in a way that can be sustained over generations.

]]> By: Eoin O'Callaghan http://zone5.org/2007/07/the-free-energy-delusion/comment-page-1/#comment-8111 Eoin O'Callaghan Tue, 31 Jul 2007 16:48:25 +0000 http://zone5.org/2007/07/23/the-free-energy-delusion/#comment-8111 <p>A chi-power plant? Hmmmm.... if the shaolin-monk reactor core were to have a meltdown, the consequences could be disastrous. Have you not seen Rush Hour? or it's equally entertaining sequal, Rush Hour 2???</p> <p>Eoin</p> A chi-power plant? Hmmmm…. if the shaolin-monk reactor core were to have a meltdown, the consequences could be disastrous. Have you not seen Rush Hour? or it’s equally entertaining sequal, Rush Hour 2???

Eoin

]]> By: Darragh http://zone5.org/2007/07/the-free-energy-delusion/comment-page-1/#comment-8096 Darragh Mon, 30 Jul 2007 12:51:24 +0000 http://zone5.org/2007/07/23/the-free-energy-delusion/#comment-8096 <p>Well said Kurt. Has no one heard of Zero Point energy!? This is the name the world of quantum physics has given to the energy that is abundant within everything. We all have a different name for it. Chi in China, prana in India. Yes, scientists now agree that it exists. In fact, learned men have for millennia agreed upon its existance. Einstein himself spoke about the "Ether". Only in the last few hundred years has science disputed it. Why? Because they could not see or touch it. Which is why they took so long to accept germs as a reality!!!</p> <p>Is it not possible that these "Free Energy" devices are in fact genuine working apparatus, tapping into this form of energy, which is something so alien to the majority of people, we decide to denounce them as fantasy?</p> Well said Kurt. Has no one heard of Zero Point energy!? This is the name the world of quantum physics has given to the energy that is abundant within everything. We all have a different name for it. Chi in China, prana in India. Yes, scientists now agree that it exists. In fact, learned men have for millennia agreed upon its existance. Einstein himself spoke about the “Ether”. Only in the last few hundred years has science disputed it. Why? Because they could not see or touch it. Which is why they took so long to accept germs as a reality!!!

Is it not possible that these “Free Energy” devices are in fact genuine working apparatus, tapping into this form of energy, which is something so alien to the majority of people, we decide to denounce them as fantasy?

]]> By: Kurt http://zone5.org/2007/07/the-free-energy-delusion/comment-page-1/#comment-7976 Kurt Thu, 26 Jul 2007 03:55:42 +0000 http://zone5.org/2007/07/23/the-free-energy-delusion/#comment-7976 <p>This is a lovely narrative. It's fundamentally flawed, but well written. While I can't write that well, I can, fortunately, comprehend the difference between a device that uses a known source of energy and one that uses energy from an unknown source. In neither case is the energy "free", as you seem to believe. Steorn's device, even if it works, is not a free energy device, or a perpetual motion device, or an infinite anything device. If it works, it's an energy conversion device that utilises an unknown source of energy.</p> <p>The kind of ill-considered misinformation you're propogating in this article in fact serves to hinder the progress of science, because it implies that any device that doesn't operate solely within the established sphere of knowledge is fraudulent or deluded. It is this implication that is in fact the delusion.</p> This is a lovely narrative. It’s fundamentally flawed, but well written. While I can’t write that well, I can, fortunately, comprehend the difference between a device that uses a known source of energy and one that uses energy from an unknown source. In neither case is the energy “free”, as you seem to believe. Steorn’s device, even if it works, is not a free energy device, or a perpetual motion device, or an infinite anything device. If it works, it’s an energy conversion device that utilises an unknown source of energy.

The kind of ill-considered misinformation you’re propogating in this article in fact serves to hinder the progress of science, because it implies that any device that doesn’t operate solely within the established sphere of knowledge is fraudulent or deluded. It is this implication that is in fact the delusion.

]]> By: Peaknik http://zone5.org/2007/07/the-free-energy-delusion/comment-page-1/#comment-7949 Peaknik Wed, 25 Jul 2007 17:18:42 +0000 http://zone5.org/2007/07/23/the-free-energy-delusion/#comment-7949 <p>Bravo! I run an energy crisis site and our forums are routinely visited by proponents of free energy devices, and they all say the same: energy is not free yet because of conspiracies, thermodynamics limits are dogmatic because science is always advancing, etc,</p> <p>Also I liked a lot the final comment about our responsibility in using energy, even some modern "environmentalists" have succumbed to the fusion chimera and see no harm in pursuing increased high energy lifestyles.</p> Bravo! I run an energy crisis site and our forums are routinely visited by proponents of free energy devices, and they all say the same: energy is not free yet because of conspiracies, thermodynamics limits are dogmatic because science is always advancing, etc,

Also I liked a lot the final comment about our responsibility in using energy, even some modern “environmentalists” have succumbed to the fusion chimera and see no harm in pursuing increased high energy lifestyles.

]]> By: Bill http://zone5.org/2007/07/the-free-energy-delusion/comment-page-1/#comment-7921 Bill Wed, 25 Jul 2007 05:30:23 +0000 http://zone5.org/2007/07/23/the-free-energy-delusion/#comment-7921 <p>Graham I have noticed recently how the "if we only try hard enough"/"if we only wish or want bad enough"/"if we only pray long enough" mantras have kind of blended into one huge philosophy of life for many people. Nothing, it seems, is impossible given sufficient emotional effort. And even more astounding, intellectual effort is aparently suspect since nothing the established scientific community proposes is trustworthy. It is only now that you have led me to understand the connection between that horribly skewed approach to life and exuberant cries of the "everything will be OK once we get the technology/investment/regulatory relief/political will that we need" crowd.</p> Graham I have noticed recently how the “if we only try hard enough”/”if we only wish or want bad enough”/”if we only pray long enough” mantras have kind of blended into one huge philosophy of life for many people. Nothing, it seems, is impossible given sufficient emotional effort. And even more astounding, intellectual effort is aparently suspect since nothing the established scientific community proposes is trustworthy. It is only now that you have led me to understand the connection between that horribly skewed approach to life and exuberant cries of the “everything will be OK once we get the technology/investment/regulatory relief/political will that we need” crowd.

]]> By: Steve Elbows http://zone5.org/2007/07/the-free-energy-delusion/comment-page-1/#comment-7909 Steve Elbows Wed, 25 Jul 2007 01:05:30 +0000 http://zone5.org/2007/07/23/the-free-energy-delusion/#comment-7909 <p>I see some parallels with other beliefs which make peak oil seem like a picnic, such as those who claim technological progress will allow industrial society to dodge resource shortages without too much pain. Or those who believe that if there is demand, supply will always be met somehow, despite what I would have thought was quite a lot of basic scientific theory that sych resources on planet earth are finite. And thats without even factoring in those who find concepts such as Abiotic oil to be a belief worth having.</p> <p>Not that I think scientific law is quite as solid as you suggest, faith and belief and dogma are not concepts totally absent from the world of science, there is always the possibility that progress and new understanding in certain fields can yield progress that would not sound scientifically valid if I imagined it today. To me these possibilities should not be relied on, if some great new progress is actually made, rather than merely a press release proclaiming progress, then humanity can consider itself lucky. Personally I find myself wondering if the pace of useful progress hasnt been rather slower in recent decades. In any case I think one of the things about peak oil is that a lot of peoples beliefs and realities will be shaken by just how much of the progress of the last several hundred years, was driven by discovering new ways to exploit resources, and just how useless these wonderous human triumphs are if the resources arent there any more.</p> <p>So anyways I pay no attention to free energy, I start by trying to get some sense of electrical useage that I can relate to something in the physical world, to try to get a handle on what its true cost is. Pedal power is where Ive got to so far in my thoughts, how many watts can I generate by with pedal power. And I will know from the sweat and the time spent that it isnt free energy. And it would also be energy from food, I suppose, Id like to compare the efficiency of that use of food to biofuels. I'll stop rambling now.</p> I see some parallels with other beliefs which make peak oil seem like a picnic, such as those who claim technological progress will allow industrial society to dodge resource shortages without too much pain. Or those who believe that if there is demand, supply will always be met somehow, despite what I would have thought was quite a lot of basic scientific theory that sych resources on planet earth are finite. And thats without even factoring in those who find concepts such as Abiotic oil to be a belief worth having.

Not that I think scientific law is quite as solid as you suggest, faith and belief and dogma are not concepts totally absent from the world of science, there is always the possibility that progress and new understanding in certain fields can yield progress that would not sound scientifically valid if I imagined it today. To me these possibilities should not be relied on, if some great new progress is actually made, rather than merely a press release proclaiming progress, then humanity can consider itself lucky. Personally I find myself wondering if the pace of useful progress hasnt been rather slower in recent decades. In any case I think one of the things about peak oil is that a lot of peoples beliefs and realities will be shaken by just how much of the progress of the last several hundred years, was driven by discovering new ways to exploit resources, and just how useless these wonderous human triumphs are if the resources arent there any more.

So anyways I pay no attention to free energy, I start by trying to get some sense of electrical useage that I can relate to something in the physical world, to try to get a handle on what its true cost is. Pedal power is where Ive got to so far in my thoughts, how many watts can I generate by with pedal power. And I will know from the sweat and the time spent that it isnt free energy. And it would also be energy from food, I suppose, Id like to compare the efficiency of that use of food to biofuels. I’ll stop rambling now.

]]> By: ROG http://zone5.org/2007/07/the-free-energy-delusion/comment-page-1/#comment-7904 ROG Tue, 24 Jul 2007 23:09:41 +0000 http://zone5.org/2007/07/23/the-free-energy-delusion/#comment-7904 <p>Thank you Graham. At primary school our teacher offered a prize to the creators of a perpetual motion machine. My friends and I were convinced we had found success by running a series of water pipes through some miniature water wheels and buckets we had found in a classroom cupboard. The teacher, Mr Wood, said nothing. He simply walked over to the apparatus we were gloating over - and turned off the tap. Reading the argument over peak oil, it seems some people have never made it, emotionally, past seven years old.</p> Thank you Graham. At primary school our teacher offered a prize to the creators of a perpetual motion machine. My friends and I were convinced we had found success by running a series of water pipes through some miniature water wheels and buckets we had found in a classroom cupboard. The teacher, Mr Wood, said nothing. He simply walked over to the apparatus we were gloating over – and turned off the tap. Reading the argument over peak oil, it seems some people have never made it, emotionally, past seven years old.

]]> By: Rob Hopkins http://zone5.org/2007/07/the-free-energy-delusion/comment-page-1/#comment-7842 Rob Hopkins Mon, 23 Jul 2007 12:46:29 +0000 http://zone5.org/2007/07/23/the-free-energy-delusion/#comment-7842 <p>What? You mean the Tooth Fairy isn't real? You've ruined my day now... . I had a woman talk to me after a talk in Penzance a while ago and enthuse about a man in Australia who had made a car that ran on water. I rather disappointed her by saying that with half the world on the verge of water over access to water, the only thing more insane than a car that ran on water would be one that ran on food, which is of course what biofuels are. Like you Graham, I have no time for free energy buffs, I don't remember who it was who said it, but I remember someone writing that everything we needed for powerdown, energy-wise, was in place in the 1970s, just the fossil fuel party started swinging again and we lost the momentum.</p> What? You mean the Tooth Fairy isn’t real? You’ve ruined my day now… . I had a woman talk to me after a talk in Penzance a while ago and enthuse about a man in Australia who had made a car that ran on water. I rather disappointed her by saying that with half the world on the verge of water over access to water, the only thing more insane than a car that ran on water would be one that ran on food, which is of course what biofuels are. Like you Graham, I have no time for free energy buffs, I don’t remember who it was who said it, but I remember someone writing that everything we needed for powerdown, energy-wise, was in place in the 1970s, just the fossil fuel party started swinging again and we lost the momentum.

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